Debian woes: Clueless newb? Or enemy action? You decide!
So, I started out my GNU/Linux life with the old Yggdrasil LGX distro (way way back in '93), and then proceeded (quite happily) for several year with Slackware. However, for the last 5 years or so, I've been a RH user. However, with the end-of-line of RH, I'm doing my due-diligance, and not only evaluating Fedora, but other distros as well. I keep hearing all this wonderful stuff about Debian. It seems every time you talk about rpm package woes on a list, some Debian afficionado immediately pipes up with "well, on Debian all you have to do is type apt-something install cokebottle, and nana nana boo boo everything works. Redhat Sucks!". So, deciding that, perhaps, I should check into this, I grabbed some woody ISO's from debian.org, read the install manual, and dived in. So, I've completed the base install, things are fine, and I'm onto the tasksel program. Gee, I'd like to be a desktop system, so that's what I pick. Guess what? No xfree86 servers. No xterm. Turns out (at least from what I saw) the only way to do this is to either a) Somehow guess (it wasn't listed in the installation guide) that I have to go into dpkg after the tasksel, scroll through 8517 (or whatever) packages, and find xserver-xfree86 and xterm packages, or b) Somehow guess I'm supposed to do an apt-get on these after the fact. Am I missing something? I checked the Installation guide 3 times, and they don't seem to talk about X at all, and I couldn't find a "Setting up your graphical desktop on Debian" help file. I figured it out, but the answers didn't jump up and slap me in the face, either. :-) Second issue: I know Debian's focus is stability, but I'm willing to risk bugs in exchange for something a little more, errr, this millenium, lets say :-) Is there an "apt-make-me-modern" command? I've done both apt-get update and apt-get upgrade, and basically that just gets me to the latest release stuff. C'mon, Debian buffs @ muug! Here's your chance to show me up as the clueless Debian newb I am. I *REALLY* want to give Debian an honest try to see if it's worthwhile deploying here at Legal Aid. So warm up your LART cluesticks and wail away: I can take it! ;-) Scott -- Scott Balneaves | The aim of a joke is not to degrade Systems Administrator | the human being but to remind him that Legal Aid Manitoba | he is already degraded. -- George Orwell
To move to the testing tree, all you have to do is edit your /etc/apt/sources.list file. For the most part you can just s/stable/testing/g, but you will have to remove the security.debian.org line that is near the end. Once you have done that, apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade and you will have access to all the fairly recent applications. If you want to throw caution to the wind, you could run unstable, which isn't as bad as it sounds, but definitely more risky. As for your X problems, this may help. http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop/ Honestly, while I am a big fan of Debian, I don't run it on my desktop (I run OS X). I am surprised that selecting a desktop system didn't install X. It should be fairly simple, one command you will want to use is apt-cache, it allows you to search for packages that are available. So to find the exact name for X.... apt-cache search xfree Which comes back with xfree86-common being what you want. But, if you know which window manager you want, you should be able to just search for them and install them and apt should install X as well. apt-get install gnome-core or apt-get install kde But ymmv. Let me know if you have any more questions. shawn On 6-Nov-03, at 10:49 AM, Scott Balneaves wrote:
So, I started out my GNU/Linux life with the old Yggdrasil LGX distro (way way back in '93), and then proceeded (quite happily) for several year with Slackware. However, for the last 5 years or so, I've been a RH user.
However, with the end-of-line of RH, I'm doing my due-diligance, and not only evaluating Fedora, but other distros as well.
I keep hearing all this wonderful stuff about Debian. It seems every time you talk about rpm package woes on a list, some Debian afficionado immediately pipes up with "well, on Debian all you have to do is type apt-something install cokebottle, and nana nana boo boo everything works. Redhat Sucks!".
So, deciding that, perhaps, I should check into this, I grabbed some woody ISO's from debian.org, read the install manual, and dived in.
So, I've completed the base install, things are fine, and I'm onto the tasksel program. Gee, I'd like to be a desktop system, so that's what I pick.
Guess what? No xfree86 servers. No xterm. Turns out (at least from what I saw) the only way to do this is to either
a) Somehow guess (it wasn't listed in the installation guide) that I have to go into dpkg after the tasksel, scroll through 8517 (or whatever) packages, and find xserver-xfree86 and xterm packages, or b) Somehow guess I'm supposed to do an apt-get on these after the fact.
Am I missing something? I checked the Installation guide 3 times, and they don't seem to talk about X at all, and I couldn't find a "Setting up your graphical desktop on Debian" help file. I figured it out, but the answers didn't jump up and slap me in the face, either. :-)
Second issue: I know Debian's focus is stability, but I'm willing to risk bugs in exchange for something a little more, errr, this millenium, lets say :-) Is there an "apt-make-me-modern" command? I've done both apt-get update and apt-get upgrade, and basically that just gets me to the latest release stuff.
C'mon, Debian buffs @ muug! Here's your chance to show me up as the clueless Debian newb I am. I *REALLY* want to give Debian an honest try to see if it's worthwhile deploying here at Legal Aid. So warm up your LART cluesticks and wail away: I can take it! ;-)
Scott
-- Scott Balneaves | The aim of a joke is not to degrade Systems Administrator | the human being but to remind him that Legal Aid Manitoba | he is already degraded. -- George Orwell
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list Roundtable@muug.mb.ca http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Shawn Wallbridge wrote:
To move to the testing tree, all you have to do is edit your /etc/apt/sources.list file. For the most part you can just s/stable/testing/g, but you will have to remove the security.debian.org line that is near the end.
Once you have done that,
apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade
Ahhh, MUCH better. That helps quite a bit. OK, so, here's a dumb question: Rather than: a) install woody b) upgrade to testing (which I'm assuming will become sarge?) Can I make ISO's of "testing"? After brief reading, I'm assuming "jigdo" would be envolved. Am I on the right track?
Helps, thx!
Honestly, while I am a big fan of Debian, I don't run it on my desktop (I run OS X). I am surprised that selecting a desktop system didn't install X. It should be fairly simple, one command you will want to use is apt-cache, it allows you to search for packages that are available. So to find the exact name for X....
apt-cache search xfree
Which comes back with xfree86-common being what you want.
That was the wierd part. xfree86-common *WAS* installed, but not servers-xfree86, which I found unusual. Like I say, I figured it out after a half an hour of twiddling. What struck me as odd was that they beat partitioning, and base install TO DEATH in the manual, but didn't even really mention X. But, hey, learning is good, adventure is good, and new things are good. It's all good. After I'd upgraded to testing, and after a few deft apt-gets for some libraries I was missing (xft2, libxml2, etc) I was able to compile openbox-3.0-rc4 and get it installed and working, which I was pretty pleased with. As well, I'm now running kernel 2.4.22, with a quick apt-get and fixup to the lilo.conf file. I've still got some learning to do, but I can see that this might be pretty sweet. My goal is to try running it on one of my boxen here at home for a solid three months before I even consider looking at something else. I think once I get used to saying apt-get install instead of rpm -Fvh I'll be fine. Now, my only other goal is to wean myself off of pine (I know, my bad, not really free, etc) and learn mutt... I'll be up in The Pas on Tuesday, so I won't be at the next MUUG meeting. Thanks to both Shawn and Tim for answering my questions. Personally, I'm beginning to think that changing distros once every couple of years is a good thing for your ego. It's nice to be reminded that, no matter how much you think you know about GNU/Linux, there's always something more to learn. That is, at the very core of it, why we all run GNU/Linux/OpenBSD/FreeBSD, etc instead of Windows, isn't it? Because it's interesting, challenging, and always evolving. Scott -- Scott L. Balneaves | "Nearly all men can stand adversity, Unix Administrator | but if you want to test a man's character, Legal Aid Manitoba | give him power." sbalneav@legalaid.mb.ca | -- Abraham Lincoln
"Scott" == Scott Balneaves <sbalneav@legalaid.mb.ca> writes:
[ snippage, signs of success... ] Scott> Now, my only other goal is to wean myself off of pine (I Scott> know, my bad, not really free, etc) and learn mutt... Mutt is OK, and it is small. Now if you're looking for power, Gnus rocks. Bow to the Emacsen! Scott> I'll be up in The Pas on Tuesday, so I won't be at the next Scott> MUUG meeting. Scott> Thanks to both Shawn and Tim for answering my questions. Scott> Personally, I'm beginning to think that changing distros Scott> once every couple of years is a good thing for your ego. Scott> It's nice to be reminded that, no matter how much you think Scott> you know about GNU/Linux, there's always something more to Scott> learn. That's true. I find there are lots who know more than me, and are willing to share. Keeps me humble, that does. :) Scott> That is, at the very core of it, why we all run Scott> GNU/Linux/OpenBSD/FreeBSD, etc instead of Windows, isn't Scott> it? Because it's interesting, challenging, and always Scott> evolving. Yah, that and the chicks. Oh, OK, I *am* kidding, but we all knew that... -- A bug in the code is worth two in the documentation.
On 6-Nov-03, at 10:29 PM, Scott Balneaves wrote:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Shawn Wallbridge wrote:
To move to the testing tree, all you have to do is edit your /etc/apt/sources.list file. For the most part you can just s/stable/testing/g, but you will have to remove the security.debian.org line that is near the end.
Once you have done that,
apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade
Ahhh, MUCH better. That helps quite a bit.
OK, so, here's a dumb question:
Rather than:
a) install woody b) upgrade to testing (which I'm assuming will become sarge?)
Can I make ISO's of "testing"? After brief reading, I'm assuming "jigdo" would be envolved. Am I on the right track?
You can sometimes find Testing ISO's out there, I have used them a few times. I haven't had any luck with jigdo, but YMMV. Well, I hope you like Debian, it really is a nice system. shawn
Helps, thx!
Honestly, while I am a big fan of Debian, I don't run it on my desktop (I run OS X). I am surprised that selecting a desktop system didn't install X. It should be fairly simple, one command you will want to use is apt-cache, it allows you to search for packages that are available. So to find the exact name for X....
apt-cache search xfree
Which comes back with xfree86-common being what you want.
That was the wierd part. xfree86-common *WAS* installed, but not servers-xfree86, which I found unusual. Like I say, I figured it out after a half an hour of twiddling.
What struck me as odd was that they beat partitioning, and base install TO DEATH in the manual, but didn't even really mention X.
But, hey, learning is good, adventure is good, and new things are good. It's all good.
After I'd upgraded to testing, and after a few deft apt-gets for some libraries I was missing (xft2, libxml2, etc) I was able to compile openbox-3.0-rc4 and get it installed and working, which I was pretty pleased with.
As well, I'm now running kernel 2.4.22, with a quick apt-get and fixup to the lilo.conf file.
I've still got some learning to do, but I can see that this might be pretty sweet. My goal is to try running it on one of my boxen here at home for a solid three months before I even consider looking at something else. I think once I get used to saying apt-get install instead of rpm -Fvh I'll be fine.
Now, my only other goal is to wean myself off of pine (I know, my bad, not really free, etc) and learn mutt...
I'll be up in The Pas on Tuesday, so I won't be at the next MUUG meeting.
Thanks to both Shawn and Tim for answering my questions. Personally, I'm beginning to think that changing distros once every couple of years is a good thing for your ego. It's nice to be reminded that, no matter how much you think you know about GNU/Linux, there's always something more to learn.
That is, at the very core of it, why we all run GNU/Linux/OpenBSD/FreeBSD, etc instead of Windows, isn't it? Because it's interesting, challenging, and always evolving.
Scott
-- Scott L. Balneaves | "Nearly all men can stand adversity, Unix Administrator | but if you want to test a man's character, Legal Aid Manitoba | give him power." sbalneav@legalaid.mb.ca | -- Abraham Lincoln
_______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing list Roundtable@muug.mb.ca http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 22:29, Scott Balneaves wrote:
Now, my only other goal is to wean myself off of pine (I know, my bad, not really free, etc) and learn mutt...
Now, having struggled through getting X up and running, we discover the true potential of X... Firing up a terminal session to run Pine.... ;) *cough*Evolution*cough* -- John Lange BigHostBox.com ltd (204) 885 0872 Toll free: 1-866-690-8297
participants (4)
-
John Lange -
Scott Balneaves -
Shawn Wallbridge -
Tim Lavoie